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hi everyone welcome to podcast UFO 4

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episode number 29 this is our second

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session with Chris Lambright and today's

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subject is mostly pertaining to the Paul

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bennewitz case you can like us on

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Facebook or you can follow us on Twitter

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those icons are right on our website

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thank you for listening and I hope you

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so I have Chris Lambright on skype again

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how you doing procession - Oh still here

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thank you

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now your book we talked about last time

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but we'll just if someone's just

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listening to this segment not the last

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one your book is X descending it's found

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on your website which is XS publishing

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com but you can also find it on Amazon

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or on Apple's iBook store a very

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interesting book well well written about

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your account of all the the in-depth

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research you've done that what did this

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take 10 years of your time well the book

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certainly did and of course then it all

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the years before that just building you

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know and learning what was out there

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unfortunately or rather fortunately

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that's one of the benefits of time as a

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lot of things came out you know Bill

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Moore gave his speech other things

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happened subsequent being able to track

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some of the the research that Mirabeau

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has been working on and looking at the

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notes you know his uh the papers he

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cited of prior research and then looking

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at some of the people that came

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afterwards who was now citing his

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research and in particular a lot of the

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information that went into that appendix

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a about Richard Doty and John Lear a lot

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of this stuff if I'd had a timeframe you

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know if I was under a crunch to finish

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it by a specific time a lot of this may

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have been left out I did have at least

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the advantage of being able to just

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finish when it got finished so so a lot

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of the stuff that that's in there now I

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think would not have been in if I'd had

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to rush it but yeah it took a long time

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yeah and Richard Doty what a character

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it's hard to understand what to believe

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about Richard Doty it's it's very

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interesting that whole thing can you

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basically in a nutshell for the person

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out there that is listening that's never

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heard about the benevento wit's case yep

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let's see okay back in the all of this

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takes place in the area of Albuquerque

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New Mexico - let's say the southern

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Colorado northern New Mexico border area

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particularly the the western side and

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back in the late 70s of course the

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cattle mutilation phenomenon was big

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thing in it so himself for mystery if

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you want to call it that and a lot of

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things were happening in that north

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western corner of New Mexico Paul

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bennewitz was a scientist who owned

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Thunder scientific a company in

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Albuquerque and they built

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I think humidity mana monitoring

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equipment a number of other kinds of

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equipment I believe but so he was

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somebody with a very very good

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reputation in the town their company had

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contracts with any number of military

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agencies and he lived it in a part of

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the town called the Four Hills which is

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actually on the eastern edge of

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Albuquerque and practically right on the

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FIPS line to the border of the Kirtland

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Air Force Base and the larger Department

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of Energy Sandia military reservation

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area but he got interested in like many

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of us where I think he'd been interested

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in the UFO phenomenon for any number of

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years probably but he had taken some

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interest in this whole idea of cattle

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mutilations and what might be going on

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at least enough to attend one of the big

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Colorado Bureau of Investigation or

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whatnot

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conferences that they had back in in

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1979 and at one point he met Gabe Valdez

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who everybody would recognize the name

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Gabe Valdez as the state trooper who in

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particular was responsible for the area

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that included the hickory Indian

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Reservation which is a large area near

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the town of dulce encompassing the

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Archuleta Mesa area right up there in

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northwestern New Mexico but he met Gabe

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Valdez and decided to kind of just take

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a ride on one of Gabe al Dez's rounds

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one night

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and this was I believe right toward the

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very end of July of 1979 and on that

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night ride I mentioned some of it in the

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book and described it that he saw some

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very unusual things going on late that

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night and the next day went out with a

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Polaroid camera just to take a picture

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of the word they'd been kind of the

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night before and it shows some of the

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edge of the art Salida Mesa and some

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trees and whatnot

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when he got back to Albuquerque from my

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understanding it was his wife who

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pointed to that Polaroid and there was

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an unusual kind of geometrically looking

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smaller

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object of some sort next to one of the

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pine trees and the in the foreground and

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they thought that was very unusual and

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it got him interested enough that in in

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in the next six months in between I

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think the next time had been in October

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and possibly they'll vary in the first

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part of November December

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he went up back up there one time with

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his son took some very unusual

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photographs and described some of it I

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described in the book things that he saw

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going on up there but on his last trip

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when he returned to Albuquerque

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apparently his wife told him about some

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strange sound she had heard over the

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house that he lived in the night before

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and of course this is an unusual strange

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subject to begin with so who's who can

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say how your thinking goes but to him at

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the time he thought well he wondered if

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what he'd been paying attention to up in

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the area of the Archuleta Mesa might

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somehow have taken note of him but for

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one reason or another he decided to stay

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up on the roof of his home late at night

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just you know look around from where his

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house was up on the very rooftop you've

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got a panoramic view of the entire area

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five miles down the slope to the valley

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where Albuquerque is and the airport

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straight south look straight at the

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Manzano weapon storage area which at the

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time was one of the most secure areas in

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the country surrounded by a double or

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triple I've heard sometimes

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electrified-fence and it was on I don't

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fit may have been that very first night

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or one of the night subsequent to that

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he noted some unusual things seemed to

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be near the ground way out there

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apparently inside the fence line of the

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Manzano weapons storage area and they

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would tend to glow every few minutes and

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so he sat out there with his binoculars

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whatnot watch them and suddenly boom

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these things took off hoot straight up

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about 400 feet boom goes straight south

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and loop around the end of the mountain

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there were apparently four of these

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objects that he saw and of course it was

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a startling thing to him to see well he

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saw these similar things going on over

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the next few nights had enough it was

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each consecutive night but I know there

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seemed to be at least three maybe four

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instances of this and finally he's up

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there with a I think

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a Hasselblad camera that he had used

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when he was up in northern New Mexico

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Aswad camera with a 250 millimeter lens

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he had some type of 8 millimeter camera

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a simple Japanese model I don't recall

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if there was a specific brand name on it

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but he also had another 35 millimeter

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camera mounted on a telescope so he was

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loaded for bear up on the roof of his

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house observing these things and at one

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point he got out there early enough to

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see them come in and quickly land he

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described them as coming in and in less

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than five seconds cuz straight down

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lights out but he would watch these

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things in it it describes in the

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information I have his handwritten notes

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that he gave on legal size paper

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outlining all the details of his

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observation of these objects this is

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what his wife was out there with him at

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one point when he could finally tell her

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to get ready here they go

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because he began to detect the sequence

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before they would lift off and and leave

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and he got a lot of this on film I mean

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and I've only seen a handful of images

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the ones that that are in the book that

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were taken off of the film in his 8

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millimeter camera there must be some

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other very high resolution images that

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were taken through the Hasselblad or

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through that telescope that I don't know

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that I'm ever that anybody's ever seen

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at least I've never seen them shown

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anywhere but it was when he went and had

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that film and he processed and he began

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to look at the film and he realized that

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he didn't recall ever having seen any

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kind of response out there on the

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woman's on a weapons storage area I mean

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didn't seem that the alarms all went off

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so he wondered whether the Air Force had

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had any clue that these things were

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coming and going so he calls the Air

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Force and from what I can find it had to

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have been in in January of 1980 if you

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figure how long would take the process

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it may be given a few days or a week or

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two you have him studying his own films

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but there was a note and all of this is

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documented in the book in which Ernest

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Edwards had told two gentlemen from

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Sandia who had come and at the request

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of I believe it was Senator Pete damnit

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or Harrison Schmitt

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Harrison Schmitt Sophos these gentlemen

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from Sandy had gone to talk to Edwards

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and Edwards said first contact with Paul

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bennewitz January of 1980

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most people have believed to this day

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that Paul's got his films in the middle

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of the year like June 1980 somewhere in

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that range about the same timeframe when

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a lot of this other stuff was going on

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when dodi's name came into the picture

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in the Kirtland documents but in fact

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Paul got those films and I've narrowed

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down when I think it occurred even

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though if I was off by a week or two you

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know it's I don't think it would

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substantially change the situation but

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Paul got those films at least in time

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for him to have contacted the air force

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in January of 1980 at that point it was

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always a curious thing to me why we have

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no documents attesting to any of those

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very first calls or anything indicating

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anybody ever went and met Bob Paul

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bennewitz even though Richard Doty has

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stated that he went at one point in met

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Paul bennewitz at his office there's no

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documentation indicating anything in

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about the first five months of the year

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everything seems to come out focusing

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right around the middle of the year but

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needless to say Paul got these films he

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was able to look at what he had and

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studied those films clearly enough to

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know he had something on film I think

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it's obvious from looking at the

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pictures in the book and everything

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seemed to grow out of that

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unfortunately what seems to have

273
00:10:43,130 --> 00:10:40,890
occurred is somewhere by May April or

274
00:10:45,290 --> 00:10:43,140
May of 1980 clearly he'd been talking to

275
00:10:48,230 --> 00:10:45,300
the Air Force for four months or so in

276
00:10:50,090 --> 00:10:48,240
here at which point I'm almost certain

277
00:10:51,890 --> 00:10:50,100
he would have told them about his prior

278
00:10:53,690 --> 00:10:51,900
interest in the area of Archuleta Mesa

279
00:10:55,130 --> 00:10:53,700
and what he'd been doing and you know

280
00:10:57,410 --> 00:10:55,140
that sort of thing what led him to be on

281
00:10:59,810 --> 00:10:57,420
the roof to begin with and I have a

282
00:11:01,850 --> 00:10:59,820
feeling that was simply a convenient you

283
00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:01,860
know something to distract him to get

284
00:11:06,340 --> 00:11:04,410
his attention back on that area but

285
00:11:08,420 --> 00:11:06,350
somewhere by around April or May

286
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:08,430
whatever Paul's interests might have

287
00:11:13,220 --> 00:11:11,010
been to begin with he was put in touch

288
00:11:15,950 --> 00:11:13,230
with a woman who claimed to have had

289
00:11:16,660 --> 00:11:15,960
some kind of abduction experience or

290
00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:16,670
whatnot

291
00:11:22,550 --> 00:11:19,650
Leo sprinkle got involved and it was

292
00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:22,560
under hypnosis that where she claimed

293
00:11:28,070 --> 00:11:24,530
that she had seen some cow being

294
00:11:29,750 --> 00:11:28,080
abducted to begin with it sounded like

295
00:11:31,970 --> 00:11:29,760
it was in the area of our Chile to Mesa

296
00:11:34,210 --> 00:11:31,980
and Dulce and that seemed to have

297
00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:34,220
ratcheted Paul's interest back

298
00:11:40,030 --> 00:11:37,250
that area because what people what few

299
00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:40,040
people seem to realize now is the whole

300
00:11:45,460 --> 00:11:43,490
scenario of underground bases in the

301
00:11:48,970 --> 00:11:45,470
Dulce area the are chilly to Mesa area

302
00:11:52,270 --> 00:11:48,980
all of that ties directly to Paul

303
00:11:54,610 --> 00:11:52,280
bennewitz is having met this woman who

304
00:11:56,830 --> 00:11:54,620
claimed that she had seen some cow being

305
00:11:59,800 --> 00:11:56,840
abducted and it sounded like it was in

306
00:12:01,450 --> 00:11:59,810
this area and under hypnosis she

307
00:12:04,060 --> 00:12:01,460
recounted what has sounded like

308
00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:04,070
underground cavern er saria's and that's

309
00:12:08,740 --> 00:12:06,410
where the whole seed for the idea of

310
00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:08,750
underground bases at Dulce was planted

311
00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:12,170
and it took Paul's attention straight

312
00:12:18,460 --> 00:12:15,530
back to that area and obviously less so

313
00:12:21,070 --> 00:12:18,470
on the area around Manzano but it also

314
00:12:23,020 --> 00:12:21,080
presented a whole lot of fodder for the

315
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:23,030
idea of underground bases that if

316
00:12:27,070 --> 00:12:25,010
anybody went and checked their woods

317
00:12:29,380 --> 00:12:27,080
they would find no real evidence of and

318
00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:29,390
it began to make Paul look like maybe

319
00:12:33,370 --> 00:12:31,970
wasn't all together you know there on

320
00:12:34,510 --> 00:12:33,380
what he was doing but we don't know what

321
00:12:36,940 --> 00:12:34,520
he was being shown and there have been

322
00:12:38,650 --> 00:12:36,950
some some reports of helicopter flights

323
00:12:40,900 --> 00:12:38,660
out there I was told of one by Ernest

324
00:12:42,610 --> 00:12:40,910
Edwards himself I've got it on tape that

325
00:12:44,530 --> 00:12:42,620
there was a helicopter flight that went

326
00:12:47,470 --> 00:12:44,540
up to that area right after that meeting

327
00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:47,480
on the base with Paul bennewitz and I

328
00:12:50,950 --> 00:12:49,310
have a suspicion of course that there

329
00:12:52,450 --> 00:12:50,960
was plenty of being set up just to make

330
00:12:54,790 --> 00:12:52,460
Paul believe there was something going

331
00:12:56,890 --> 00:12:54,800
on up there and he probably trusted why

332
00:12:58,450 --> 00:12:56,900
I wouldn't have trusted the Air Force

333
00:13:00,820 --> 00:12:58,460
you know if you call them in good faith

334
00:13:01,990 --> 00:13:00,830
and they're supposed to be concerned and

335
00:13:03,580 --> 00:13:02,000
they're flying you up there and

336
00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:03,590
helicopters or they're telling you what

337
00:13:07,450 --> 00:13:05,810
they can tell you and then bill Moore

338
00:13:10,030 --> 00:13:07,460
comes in and you don't know that bill

339
00:13:11,860 --> 00:13:10,040
Mohr's being you know there's a circle

340
00:13:13,630 --> 00:13:11,870
of information being fed from you to

341
00:13:15,190 --> 00:13:13,640
more to Dodi to back around coming back

342
00:13:18,460 --> 00:13:15,200
to you that seems to substantiate what

343
00:13:19,930 --> 00:13:18,470
you're doing that I've often to this day

344
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:19,940
I believe you know if you did not know

345
00:13:24,910 --> 00:13:22,730
that though people around you we're

346
00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:24,920
working together to feed you information

347
00:13:29,230 --> 00:13:26,930
how long how hard would it be to make

348
00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:29,240
you look unstable to make you believe

349
00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:30,770
things that you wouldn't otherwise have

350
00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:33,770
you know have swallowed but but needless

351
00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:36,650
to say my take on everything was to

352
00:13:41,950 --> 00:13:39,170
focus specifically on those original

353
00:13:46,150 --> 00:13:41,960
films because when I first talked to

354
00:13:47,519 --> 00:13:46,160
Paul as you asked me early on a lot of

355
00:13:49,650 --> 00:13:47,529
what he was saying sounded

356
00:13:52,710 --> 00:13:49,660
or I mean it was hard for me to

357
00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:52,720
comprehend how anybody could buy into

358
00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:55,569
this and I began to realize that I don't

359
00:14:00,090 --> 00:13:57,370
think the Air Force would just invite

360
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:00,100
somebody to a meeting on base if they

361
00:14:04,350 --> 00:14:01,810
were talking about ideas that had no

362
00:14:06,210 --> 00:14:04,360
real no no evidentiary foundation to

363
00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:06,220
them why would you call somebody down

364
00:14:10,049 --> 00:14:07,569
with a meeting with a brigadier general

365
00:14:12,780 --> 00:14:10,059
and the head of the weapons lab and made

366
00:14:13,319 --> 00:14:12,790
no sense at all so when I finally asked

367
00:14:15,929 --> 00:14:13,329
Paul

368
00:14:17,369 --> 00:14:15,939
well what did what was the first thing

369
00:14:19,679 --> 00:14:17,379
that you what did you ever call the Air

370
00:14:22,170 --> 00:14:19,689
Force about to begin with and he said it

371
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:22,180
was the first films that I took and I'm

372
00:14:26,939 --> 00:14:24,850
like what films were those and that's

373
00:14:29,309 --> 00:14:26,949
when it all began to come together for

374
00:14:30,660 --> 00:14:29,319
me that the only reason he ever called

375
00:14:32,249 --> 00:14:30,670
the Air Force was because he had these

376
00:14:33,660 --> 00:14:32,259
films of these vehicles coming and going

377
00:14:36,509 --> 00:14:33,670
from the Manzano weapons storage area

378
00:14:38,369 --> 00:14:36,519
and that's if you look at the

379
00:14:41,939 --> 00:14:38,379
documentation almost all of it tends to

380
00:14:43,710 --> 00:14:41,949
focus on those specific films and then

381
00:14:46,319 --> 00:14:43,720
try to begin to diffuse the whole

382
00:14:49,710 --> 00:14:46,329
situation with other things being fed -

383
00:14:51,749 --> 00:14:49,720
you know - through who is a pro at the

384
00:14:53,910 --> 00:14:51,759
time you know the Wetzel letter a lot of

385
00:14:56,910 --> 00:14:53,920
other things coming into play bill more

386
00:14:59,790 --> 00:14:56,920
to hold mj-12 thing which now books have

387
00:15:01,769 --> 00:14:59,800
been written on that and I realize not

388
00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:01,779
only do people not specially a lot of

389
00:15:05,670 --> 00:15:03,370
younger people are not really familiar

390
00:15:06,929 --> 00:15:05,680
with the vinovich case to begin with but

391
00:15:08,999 --> 00:15:06,939
if you go look on the bookshelves and

392
00:15:10,980 --> 00:15:09,009
you find books about mj-12 and all these

393
00:15:13,530 --> 00:15:10,990
sights written about this and you don't

394
00:15:16,799 --> 00:15:13,540
realize that the first mentioned ever

395
00:15:19,769 --> 00:15:16,809
was about mj-12 was in a document which

396
00:15:21,629 --> 00:15:19,779
is admittedly disinformation that was

397
00:15:24,210 --> 00:15:21,639
intended to be handed to Paul bennewitz

398
00:15:27,389 --> 00:15:24,220
and it was where the Aquarius telex and

399
00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:27,399
in j12 were first first mentioned but

400
00:15:31,350 --> 00:15:28,930
then suddenly in three years later I

401
00:15:33,869 --> 00:15:31,360
believe in the 83 d4 timeframe you have

402
00:15:36,090 --> 00:15:33,879
bill Moore and Jamie Chantry coming out

403
00:15:37,769 --> 00:15:36,100
with supposedly finding information on

404
00:15:39,860 --> 00:15:37,779
you know this roll of film they were

405
00:15:43,110 --> 00:15:39,870
sent with all of these mj-12 documents

406
00:15:45,059 --> 00:15:43,120
right as though mj-12 is taking off as a

407
00:15:48,210 --> 00:15:45,069
standalone issue in its own right

408
00:15:50,939 --> 00:15:48,220
so it's like Kelsey and and you know

409
00:15:53,220 --> 00:15:50,949
everything it there was so many things

410
00:15:56,790 --> 00:15:53,230
spawned out of this whole whole

411
00:15:59,040 --> 00:15:56,800
situation yeah and to me that's the

412
00:16:00,509 --> 00:15:59,050
point all of this information that

413
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:00,519
spawned out of that is kind of the

414
00:16:03,130 --> 00:16:01,490
divide and conquer

415
00:16:04,510 --> 00:16:03,140
approach you give something for

416
00:16:06,370 --> 00:16:04,520
everybody if you're interested in

417
00:16:08,230 --> 00:16:06,380
conspiracy theories well there you go

418
00:16:10,090 --> 00:16:08,240
there's mj-12 there's the government if

419
00:16:12,370 --> 00:16:10,100
you're interested in aliens well there's

420
00:16:14,980 --> 00:16:12,380
underground bases everybody begins to

421
00:16:17,170 --> 00:16:14,990
look a different way in fact I had to

422
00:16:18,510 --> 00:16:17,180
rewrite the chapters in the book that

423
00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:18,520
dealt with counterintelligence

424
00:16:23,170 --> 00:16:21,110
when I spoke with someone who used to be

425
00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:23,180
kind of intelligence and I at one point

426
00:16:26,350 --> 00:16:25,250
I just happened to be sitting there over

427
00:16:28,540 --> 00:16:26,360
a cup of coffee and I said you know I

428
00:16:30,910 --> 00:16:28,550
don't understand why he calls them in

429
00:16:33,490 --> 00:16:30,920
January and nothing seems to happen

430
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:33,500
until whenever

431
00:16:37,540 --> 00:16:36,290
eight months later I said we don't have

432
00:16:39,460 --> 00:16:37,550
any documentation with the Air Force

433
00:16:41,500 --> 00:16:39,470
it's like they didn't do anything and he

434
00:16:44,530 --> 00:16:41,510
looked at me and was just shaking his

435
00:16:47,110 --> 00:16:44,540
head and he said when you're in security

436
00:16:48,670 --> 00:16:47,120
and in places like this you have

437
00:16:50,350 --> 00:16:48,680
contingency plans you don't sit around

438
00:16:51,730 --> 00:16:50,360
and wait until something happens and

439
00:16:53,889 --> 00:16:51,740
then try to decide what you're going to

440
00:16:56,170 --> 00:16:53,899
do there would have been people in place

441
00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:56,180
and of course that eventually led me to

442
00:16:59,860 --> 00:16:57,770
find the book which you can also buy an

443
00:17:02,260 --> 00:16:59,870
Amazon written by the the gentleman who

444
00:17:05,590 --> 00:17:02,270
used to be an AFO si and I use his own

445
00:17:08,439 --> 00:17:05,600
book to indicate how much pre-planning

446
00:17:11,439 --> 00:17:08,449
goes in to security situations to have

447
00:17:14,010 --> 00:17:11,449
something in place if something happens

448
00:17:16,350 --> 00:17:14,020
my belief was when Paul called

449
00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:16,360
the Air Force and was put in touch with

450
00:17:21,669 --> 00:17:19,490
Doty or whomever else was there and they

451
00:17:23,829 --> 00:17:21,679
knew that he had seen and filmed what

452
00:17:25,689 --> 00:17:23,839
their what was there there was probably

453
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:25,699
already some contingency plans on what

454
00:17:29,020 --> 00:17:27,410
do you do if you have a witness how do

455
00:17:32,620 --> 00:17:29,030
you and how do you do this that the

456
00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:32,630
other and and perhaps they hope Paul

457
00:17:36,669 --> 00:17:34,370
would just kind of go away you know he

458
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:36,679
might lose interest if they or maybe he

459
00:17:39,970 --> 00:17:38,210
would play ball with them and keep quiet

460
00:17:42,669 --> 00:17:39,980
I don't know what happened that

461
00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:42,679
ultimately it came came to what it did

462
00:17:49,090 --> 00:17:46,910
but but to me it's the idea that now

463
00:17:51,010 --> 00:17:49,100
everybody thinks Paul was just somebody

464
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:51,020
taking he thought there was aliens in

465
00:17:54,250 --> 00:17:53,090
underground bases and if you look at the

466
00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:54,260
current lindenson as well there's a lot

467
00:17:59,590 --> 00:17:56,570
of things happening in around the middle

468
00:18:02,860 --> 00:17:59,600
of the year to later nobody seems to

469
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:02,870
have any real clue that Paul by himself

470
00:18:06,910 --> 00:18:04,970
was on the roof of his house when he got

471
00:18:09,370 --> 00:18:06,920
those first films and the Air Force

472
00:18:12,310 --> 00:18:09,380
didn't have any idea that he was there

473
00:18:13,540 --> 00:18:12,320
before call them now when you say the

474
00:18:14,330 --> 00:18:13,550
roof of his house I was trying to

475
00:18:16,100 --> 00:18:14,340
picture this

476
00:18:19,220 --> 00:18:16,110
did you have like a deck outside of the

477
00:18:22,670 --> 00:18:19,230
roof of his house or something the Four

478
00:18:24,950 --> 00:18:22,680
Hills area is kind of a enclosed little

479
00:18:26,930 --> 00:18:24,960
I guess I would I would term it the

480
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:26,940
ritzy part of town so to speak there's

481
00:18:31,790 --> 00:18:28,410
even a fort Hills Country Club in that

482
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:31,800
area but if you go to to the road wagon

483
00:18:39,050 --> 00:18:35,250
train drive I guess southeast there's a

484
00:18:40,820 --> 00:18:39,060
white kind of community and if you

485
00:18:43,970 --> 00:18:40,830
actually if you go to my website and

486
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:43,980
look under the the galleries I've got

487
00:18:48,020 --> 00:18:46,170
some panoramic views there's a map that

488
00:18:50,900 --> 00:18:48,030
shows the general area where all this is

489
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:50,910
located and one of the panoramic views I

490
00:18:54,020 --> 00:18:52,890
shot was from the white wall but it

491
00:18:56,090 --> 00:18:54,030
would show you that the whole area you

492
00:18:58,190 --> 00:18:56,100
turn into this area where all these

493
00:19:01,190 --> 00:18:58,200
houses are inside a big like a 1 full

494
00:19:04,010 --> 00:19:01,200
block the parking garage is around the

495
00:19:05,690 --> 00:19:04,020
outside so there's a blacktop road that

496
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:05,700
goes around the outside like a doughnut

497
00:19:11,420 --> 00:19:09,050
and the driveways with excuse me the

498
00:19:13,250 --> 00:19:11,430
sidewalks with it front doors are all on

499
00:19:15,950 --> 00:19:13,260
the inside but think of this thing is

500
00:19:18,290 --> 00:19:15,960
one huge block of expensive homes kind

501
00:19:20,390 --> 00:19:18,300
of the white Adobe with a red brick

502
00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:20,400
little you know a button that's on it

503
00:19:24,410 --> 00:19:22,710
but apparently his is a two-story house

504
00:19:26,630 --> 00:19:24,420
with kind of an outside deck on the

505
00:19:29,020 --> 00:19:26,640
second floor but if you get up on the

506
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:29,030
top of the roof it's flat oh I see

507
00:19:33,260 --> 00:19:31,650
that's my understanding that if you get

508
00:19:34,910 --> 00:19:33,270
up on the top of this roof which I

509
00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:34,920
believe it's where he had to have been

510
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:38,130
that he has pretty well a 360 degree

511
00:19:42,530 --> 00:19:41,010
panoramic view of the entire scene from

512
00:19:45,050 --> 00:19:42,540
the Manzano's all the way to the West

513
00:19:47,330 --> 00:19:45,060
Mesa on the opposite side and it's funny

514
00:19:49,790 --> 00:19:47,340
because his house about five miles from

515
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:49,800
the airport looks straight down the

516
00:19:53,810 --> 00:19:52,050
runway as the plane took off and didn't

517
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:53,820
quite make it it might very well hit

518
00:19:58,040 --> 00:19:55,050
right into that area

519
00:20:01,130 --> 00:19:58,050
lets him actively a quarter of a mile or

520
00:20:03,140 --> 00:20:01,140
so from the northernmost part of the

521
00:20:04,370 --> 00:20:03,150
Manzano weapons storage area which is

522
00:20:07,220 --> 00:20:04,380
about a three mile range that goes

523
00:20:11,270 --> 00:20:07,230
almost due north and south so he had

524
00:20:13,010 --> 00:20:11,280
from his place on top of his roof almost

525
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:13,020
a bird's-eye straight across the plains

526
00:20:16,730 --> 00:20:14,970
above the fence and everything right to

527
00:20:18,260 --> 00:20:16,740
the Manzano weapons storage area there's

528
00:20:20,390 --> 00:20:18,270
a picture in the book that that shows

529
00:20:22,490 --> 00:20:20,400
that as well so he had a very very good

530
00:20:25,430 --> 00:20:22,500
view of things coming and going from

531
00:20:26,610 --> 00:20:25,440
there now his second floor laboratory

532
00:20:29,370 --> 00:20:26,620
that he had he

533
00:20:32,070 --> 00:20:29,380
right away started making some type of

534
00:20:34,260 --> 00:20:32,080
electronic equipment that would detect

535
00:20:36,810 --> 00:20:34,270
any type of pulses and things like that

536
00:20:38,630 --> 00:20:36,820
he started right away in suspicion that

537
00:20:41,460 --> 00:20:38,640
these things were generating

538
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:41,470
electromagnetic pulses or something well

539
00:20:45,870 --> 00:20:43,210
that seems to be my understanding I mean

540
00:20:48,810 --> 00:20:45,880
I do want to say I've been to paws house

541
00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:48,820
I just met him briefly but I never was

542
00:20:53,399 --> 00:20:51,130
actually up in his upstairs office or

543
00:20:55,289 --> 00:20:53,409
lab study to really know what the layout

544
00:20:58,590 --> 00:20:55,299
of that was but from my understanding

545
00:21:00,779 --> 00:20:58,600
and from what he described it was after

546
00:21:03,330 --> 00:21:00,789
he took these films and he began to look

547
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:03,340
and at the films and especially if I'm

548
00:21:09,419 --> 00:21:05,890
not mistaken he noted at one point that

549
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:09,429
the way they seemed to take off and move

550
00:21:13,830 --> 00:21:11,890
in synchrony almost made him believe

551
00:21:15,539 --> 00:21:13,840
they obviously there must be some type

552
00:21:18,060 --> 00:21:15,549
of communication that where they're able

553
00:21:20,010 --> 00:21:18,070
to synchronize their movements and at

554
00:21:22,350 --> 00:21:20,020
that point I think because of his

555
00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:22,360
knowledge with and and of course he had

556
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:24,130
Thunder scientific whereas his lab he

557
00:21:25,740 --> 00:21:25,330
could build what he needed down there as

558
00:21:29,010 --> 00:21:25,750
well

559
00:21:31,350 --> 00:21:29,020
but I think nobody argues the idea that

560
00:21:32,850 --> 00:21:31,360
this guy was some kind of electronics

561
00:21:35,279 --> 00:21:32,860
genius I mean he could build what he

562
00:21:37,289 --> 00:21:35,289
needed to build Greg Bishop makes some

563
00:21:40,139 --> 00:21:37,299
points about the equipment that that

564
00:21:41,610 --> 00:21:40,149
Paul had in his lab as well but he began

565
00:21:43,529 --> 00:21:41,620
to think if these things are

566
00:21:45,330 --> 00:21:43,539
communicating in either their modulating

567
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:45,340
frequencies or whatever the case was

568
00:21:49,980 --> 00:21:47,770
that he should be able to detect some of

569
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:49,990
that and he thought if I can build some

570
00:21:54,870 --> 00:21:52,330
piece of equipment that's able to detect

571
00:21:57,029 --> 00:21:54,880
whatever unusual you know frequencies

572
00:21:59,789 --> 00:21:57,039
are going on then it might be a way for

573
00:22:02,549 --> 00:21:59,799
him to detect either a the presence of

574
00:22:04,409 --> 00:22:02,559
these vehicles or it be something about

575
00:22:06,029 --> 00:22:04,419
how they're moving or communicating or

576
00:22:08,220 --> 00:22:06,039
whatnot he began to build equipment to

577
00:22:10,500 --> 00:22:08,230
try to do that and it seems very clear

578
00:22:12,690 --> 00:22:10,510
to me that he built that equipment after

579
00:22:14,070 --> 00:22:12,700
he had gotten his films and studied the

580
00:22:15,810 --> 00:22:14,080
films enough to kind of come up with an

581
00:22:18,149 --> 00:22:15,820
idea of how he might detect what was out

582
00:22:19,260 --> 00:22:18,159
there the signals that he got on those

583
00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:19,270
films and I think there was some

584
00:22:22,710 --> 00:22:20,710
reference in one of the documents where

585
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:22,720
Jerry Miller says that Jerry Miller

586
00:22:26,220 --> 00:22:24,850
himself says well you know it wasn't

587
00:22:27,210 --> 00:22:26,230
sure whether those signals might not

588
00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:27,220
have you know could have come from

589
00:22:31,710 --> 00:22:29,110
anywhere if you're just looking at the

590
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:31,720
tape you know so to speak but um but

591
00:22:35,850 --> 00:22:33,610
that's my understanding that Paul was

592
00:22:37,350 --> 00:22:35,860
trying to build equipment that might be

593
00:22:39,539 --> 00:22:37,360
able to detect whatever types of

594
00:22:40,769 --> 00:22:39,549
frequencies were being emitted

595
00:22:42,659 --> 00:22:40,779
these vehicles when they were in the

596
00:22:45,180 --> 00:22:42,669
area whether he was ultimately

597
00:22:50,009 --> 00:22:45,190
successful with that or not I don't know

598
00:22:53,940 --> 00:22:50,019
now he what you yourself have been into

599
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:53,950
computers very early on and I noticed it

600
00:22:59,159 --> 00:22:55,450
somewhere in your book I believe it was

601
00:23:02,159 --> 00:22:59,169
like 1980 he was supposedly given a

602
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:02,169
computer and what kind of computer would

603
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:03,970
you have back then it wouldn't do too

604
00:23:08,249 --> 00:23:06,730
much back in 1980 and what what was I

605
00:23:12,210 --> 00:23:08,259
know there was rumors about that

606
00:23:15,090 --> 00:23:12,220
computer that it was almost like spy

607
00:23:16,799 --> 00:23:15,100
software or something on it can you talk

608
00:23:19,499 --> 00:23:16,809
a little bit about that I can tell you

609
00:23:21,180 --> 00:23:19,509
what know what I know but I will say as

610
00:23:24,659 --> 00:23:21,190
I said to begin with that most of my

611
00:23:26,430 --> 00:23:24,669
focus on Paul's work dealt with what

612
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:26,440
came about in the first year

613
00:23:30,749 --> 00:23:28,450
specifically around those films the

614
00:23:31,950 --> 00:23:30,759
information about the computer the first

615
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:31,960
that I really heard of that much

616
00:23:36,330 --> 00:23:34,090
specifics about where it came from or

617
00:23:39,180 --> 00:23:36,340
how it got to Paul was something that

618
00:23:41,220 --> 00:23:39,190
Greg Bishop wrote about and and it

619
00:23:43,799 --> 00:23:41,230
seemed that of course I understand to

620
00:23:45,450 --> 00:23:43,809
believe Paul was pretty well-off so he

621
00:23:48,779 --> 00:23:45,460
very probably would have had the money

622
00:23:50,099 --> 00:23:48,789
to buy a computer of his own although

623
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:50,109
back in the day of course I think they

624
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:51,970
were just you know you had pretty well

625
00:23:56,940 --> 00:23:54,730
TRS ATS some of the early 80 88 bottles

626
00:23:59,700 --> 00:23:56,950
some big floppy disks you know that sort

627
00:24:01,710 --> 00:23:59,710
of thing yeah but other than and I know

628
00:24:03,930 --> 00:24:01,720
those computers were available so I

629
00:24:06,659 --> 00:24:03,940
don't really know specifically what kind

630
00:24:09,539 --> 00:24:06,669
of computer it was or whether he bought

631
00:24:10,889 --> 00:24:09,549
that computer himself but the impression

632
00:24:13,499 --> 00:24:10,899
I got or the understanding I got from

633
00:24:15,539 --> 00:24:13,509
what Greg Bishop said was that the

634
00:24:17,519 --> 00:24:15,549
computer and I would presume the

635
00:24:20,549 --> 00:24:17,529
computer and the software to go with it

636
00:24:24,599 --> 00:24:20,559
had been given to Paul or was delivered

637
00:24:26,190 --> 00:24:24,609
to Paul by jail and Hynek at the request

638
00:24:28,649 --> 00:24:26,200
of the Air Force but with a stipulation

639
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:28,659
that I Nick not tell Paul bennewitz

640
00:24:32,759 --> 00:24:31,330
where the computer came from now whether

641
00:24:35,669 --> 00:24:32,769
it was occurred that from anyone else

642
00:24:39,259 --> 00:24:35,679
because that seems awful bizarre it does

643
00:24:41,729 --> 00:24:39,269
and I'm not saying that I believe it I

644
00:24:43,259 --> 00:24:41,739
dislike the idea of something being said

645
00:24:45,210 --> 00:24:43,269
about someone who's no longer here to

646
00:24:46,979 --> 00:24:45,220
find out or argue with or to ask about

647
00:24:48,419 --> 00:24:46,989
it so with Hynek not being around

648
00:24:50,730 --> 00:24:48,429
it's almost sounds like it's fair game

649
00:24:53,500 --> 00:24:50,740
to blame anything and you want on Hynek

650
00:24:56,500 --> 00:24:53,510
i would have been necessary

651
00:25:00,159 --> 00:24:56,510
it's very possible that if Paul was into

652
00:25:03,340 --> 00:25:00,169
this and who's to say that Richard Doty

653
00:25:04,990 --> 00:25:03,350
or anyone else might not have come to

654
00:25:06,340 --> 00:25:05,000
Paul and said we don't know how you're

655
00:25:08,620 --> 00:25:06,350
doing what you're doing but tell you

656
00:25:10,390 --> 00:25:08,630
what here's a computer and here's some

657
00:25:11,980 --> 00:25:10,400
software that you might be able to use

658
00:25:13,810 --> 00:25:11,990
to you know maybe he could write some

659
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:13,820
programs of his own for all I know

660
00:25:17,919 --> 00:25:16,490
but the concern I've got is if you're

661
00:25:19,510 --> 00:25:17,929
going to build if you're gonna have a

662
00:25:21,220 --> 00:25:19,520
computer that's going to pick up some

663
00:25:24,130 --> 00:25:21,230
kind of signal and especially if you're

664
00:25:27,039 --> 00:25:24,140
provided a computer with software

665
00:25:30,549 --> 00:25:27,049
intended to you know to help him

666
00:25:32,169 --> 00:25:30,559
communicate with the aliens then you

667
00:25:33,549 --> 00:25:32,179
have to know what kind of saw what kind

668
00:25:36,700 --> 00:25:33,559
of signal that software is going to

669
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:36,710
interpret absolutely my friend Tommy

670
00:25:39,730 --> 00:25:38,210
bland who I've known for years and years

671
00:25:40,990 --> 00:25:39,740
he and I got into this together and he

672
00:25:43,270 --> 00:25:41,000
was there at the beginning of all of

673
00:25:44,710 --> 00:25:43,280
this Paul bennewitz stuff he is very

674
00:25:46,810 --> 00:25:44,720
very good for it was very good friends

675
00:25:49,450 --> 00:25:46,820
with Gabe Valdez and is still friends

676
00:25:52,180 --> 00:25:49,460
with Valdez his sons and apparently Greg

677
00:25:53,830 --> 00:25:52,190
Valdez one of gave out as a sons of

678
00:25:56,470 --> 00:25:53,840
course Gabe also had a lot of stuff that

679
00:25:58,330 --> 00:25:56,480
Paul bennewitz was you know it was

680
00:26:01,120 --> 00:25:58,340
giving to him and showing to him and

681
00:26:02,830 --> 00:26:01,130
Greg Valdez actually had a photograph

682
00:26:04,180 --> 00:26:02,840
that I think looks very simple one of

683
00:26:06,850 --> 00:26:04,190
the photographs that Paul bennewitz sent

684
00:26:08,620 --> 00:26:06,860
me so I'm not the only one who has a at

685
00:26:10,930 --> 00:26:08,630
least this one particular copy of this

686
00:26:12,510 --> 00:26:10,940
small project and the blueish spike but

687
00:26:14,260 --> 00:26:12,520
we asked them about the computer

688
00:26:17,070 --> 00:26:14,270
information what was there and

689
00:26:20,110 --> 00:26:17,080
apparently they had may still have some

690
00:26:22,060 --> 00:26:20,120
photographs of what might have been on

691
00:26:24,220 --> 00:26:22,070
the screen of pulse

692
00:26:26,860 --> 00:26:24,230
although screen that showed that but

693
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:26,870
what I get the impression of is the some

694
00:26:31,090 --> 00:26:29,210
of the early imagery may have been very

695
00:26:33,070 --> 00:26:31,100
rudimentary graphics there was some

696
00:26:35,710 --> 00:26:33,080
reference to a computer game from years

697
00:26:37,659 --> 00:26:35,720
ago called wagon train or wagons West

698
00:26:39,610 --> 00:26:37,669
just some little tiny you know stick

699
00:26:41,770 --> 00:26:39,620
figure very blocky graphics back in the

700
00:26:44,620 --> 00:26:41,780
day so there's some of what was coming

701
00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:44,630
across that screen at best may have been

702
00:26:49,419 --> 00:26:46,910
very very rudimentary who knows what it

703
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:49,429
was but Tommy bland said that he

704
00:26:54,070 --> 00:26:51,410
actually saw some of the pictures that

705
00:26:56,530 --> 00:26:54,080
had come off and there were some bizarre

706
00:26:58,780 --> 00:26:56,540
things coming across that screen images

707
00:27:02,080 --> 00:26:58,790
that and and I'm not saying I believe

708
00:27:03,669 --> 00:27:02,090
any of it but the talk was was he

709
00:27:05,470 --> 00:27:03,679
looking at some images that may have

710
00:27:06,830 --> 00:27:05,480
been projections from the past because

711
00:27:09,170 --> 00:27:06,840
some of them showed

712
00:27:12,770 --> 00:27:09,180
dinosaur looking maybe reptilian looking

713
00:27:14,750 --> 00:27:12,780
creatures you see to me I think there's

714
00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:14,760
every reason to believe especially if

715
00:27:19,250 --> 00:27:17,130
what Greg Bishop wrote was in fact in

716
00:27:21,530 --> 00:27:19,260
any way truthful that somehow the Air

717
00:27:24,350 --> 00:27:21,540
Force got a computer or some software to

718
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:24,360
Paul that he was getting exactly what

719
00:27:28,660 --> 00:27:26,730
they were sending him that they hoped

720
00:27:30,860 --> 00:27:28,670
and prayed he would tell everybody about

721
00:27:32,810 --> 00:27:30,870
because it would seem so bizarre on the

722
00:27:34,610 --> 00:27:32,820
firt on the face of it that it

723
00:27:35,990 --> 00:27:34,620
immediately begins to make you step back

724
00:27:38,990 --> 00:27:36,000
from anything else Paul would have

725
00:27:40,730 --> 00:27:39,000
talked about so I just I stayed away

726
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:40,740
from a lot of that because I agree that

727
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:45,090
by the time in the mid mid 80s and Paul

728
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:46,770
was some of the things he was saying

729
00:27:52,010 --> 00:27:49,650
we're just very very hard to comprehend

730
00:27:54,290 --> 00:27:52,020
you know but but once again like that

731
00:27:57,470 --> 00:27:54,300
appendix about the small balls of light

732
00:27:58,700 --> 00:27:57,480
and the beams hitting them that was one

733
00:28:00,440 --> 00:27:58,710
of the first things I'd say well let's

734
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:00,450
get back to the film's you know I want

735
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:02,010
to talk about something else and then

736
00:28:05,930 --> 00:28:03,810
you begin to realize well wait a minute

737
00:28:08,030 --> 00:28:05,940
Linda Howe saw these marks other people

738
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:08,040
documented these things so I don't know

739
00:28:11,990 --> 00:28:10,530
what was going on but clearly there's

740
00:28:14,090 --> 00:28:12,000
some very bizarre things happening in

741
00:28:16,310 --> 00:28:14,100
his home right right then

742
00:28:18,460 --> 00:28:16,320
John Lear gets into the picture and

743
00:28:24,770 --> 00:28:18,470
there's all kinds of connections between

744
00:28:27,530 --> 00:28:24,780
John Lear and Dodi and this is all all

745
00:28:31,490 --> 00:28:27,540
really interesting you first think of

746
00:28:33,290 --> 00:28:31,500
John Lear the reputation he has you know

747
00:28:36,890 --> 00:28:33,300
from his father inventing the Learjet

748
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:36,900
and he's such a decorated pilot himself

749
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:40,770
and it just kind of takes a whole twist

750
00:28:48,170 --> 00:28:45,810
back and forth between Lear and who goes

751
00:28:50,930 --> 00:28:48,180
to Bennet's house and this is kind of

752
00:28:52,700 --> 00:28:50,940
like ending toward the time that you're

753
00:28:54,950 --> 00:28:52,710
you're actually speaking with bennewitz

754
00:28:57,170 --> 00:28:54,960
because something that happened between

755
00:28:58,910 --> 00:28:57,180
him and John Lear kind of made

756
00:29:01,100 --> 00:28:58,920
everything fall apart can you talk a

757
00:29:04,330 --> 00:29:01,110
little bit about that yeah

758
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:04,340
my experience with John Lear came about

759
00:29:10,580 --> 00:29:08,010
through my friendship with Dale Gaudi

760
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:10,590
who was actually the the founder of the

761
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:14,850
computer UFO network q Fon back up in

762
00:29:19,620 --> 00:29:17,490
Seattle which is still maintained I

763
00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:19,630
think to this day by Jim Klotz

764
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:23,110
but one point there had been a challenge

765
00:29:29,850 --> 00:29:26,890
by fill class to come to the the

766
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:29,860
National Press Club and show some of

767
00:29:34,470 --> 00:29:32,530
these Kirtland documents that that had

768
00:29:37,170 --> 00:29:34,480
already come out by that time because

769
00:29:39,540 --> 00:29:37,180
class was claiming it was all a hoax

770
00:29:41,730 --> 00:29:39,550
you know baloney whatnot and he

771
00:29:43,410 --> 00:29:41,740
challenged Dale said he said he would

772
00:29:45,150 --> 00:29:43,420
pay for the Press Club if Dale would go

773
00:29:47,370 --> 00:29:45,160
there and present them and so Dale

774
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:47,380
contacted me and because he knew I was

775
00:29:51,660 --> 00:29:49,450
working on some of this and said he's

776
00:29:53,580 --> 00:29:51,670
thinking of taking up the challenge and

777
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:53,590
it turned out that there was going to be

778
00:29:58,110 --> 00:29:55,450
a mute fawned conference at that

779
00:30:00,630 --> 00:29:58,120
basically at the same time in the

780
00:30:02,550 --> 00:30:00,640
Washington DC area and so he arranged

781
00:30:04,110 --> 00:30:02,560
with Phil to just have this have a

782
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:04,120
little press conference at the National

783
00:30:07,770 --> 00:30:06,130
Press Club I think it was like on that

784
00:30:09,330 --> 00:30:07,780
Friday if I recall the exact timeframe

785
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:09,340
but anyway right about that so we'd get

786
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:10,570
the same flights in and out of

787
00:30:15,510 --> 00:30:12,130
Washington and catch you know kill two

788
00:30:18,150 --> 00:30:15,520
birds with one stone and just before all

789
00:30:20,460 --> 00:30:18,160
of this came about Dale contacted me and

790
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:20,470
said that he had been contacted by John

791
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:22,930
Lear and of course all of us were like

792
00:30:28,290 --> 00:30:26,050
wow John Lear you know Learjets and and

793
00:30:30,810 --> 00:30:28,300
so you did get he get some mileage out

794
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:30,820
of that name that's for sure but and

795
00:30:35,820 --> 00:30:33,010
apparently John Lear had wanted to meet

796
00:30:39,090 --> 00:30:35,830
with Dale in in Washington when we were

797
00:30:41,310 --> 00:30:39,100
there fine I mean that wasn't my call on

798
00:30:44,010 --> 00:30:41,320
any of it but so we all end up in

799
00:30:46,530 --> 00:30:44,020
Washington and there's John Lear a very

800
00:30:49,890 --> 00:30:46,540
amiable guy I mean I will stay to this

801
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:49,900
day he is a very very likable person and

802
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:52,570
outside of any of this probably an

803
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:54,730
interesting guy with a lot of tales to

804
00:30:59,100 --> 00:30:57,010
tell but he shows up in Washington we

805
00:31:00,750 --> 00:30:59,110
all met we were all friendly Dale was

806
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:00,760
there I was there Tommy bland was there

807
00:31:04,380 --> 00:31:02,770
and everything seemed very innocent at

808
00:31:09,150 --> 00:31:04,390
that point as we were preparing for the

809
00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:09,160
for the Press Club meeting and sitting

810
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:12,310
in the room if memory serves me there

811
00:31:15,750 --> 00:31:14,530
were some Vincennes made by John who we

812
00:31:17,550 --> 00:31:15,760
thought knew nothing we thought he was

813
00:31:20,190 --> 00:31:17,560
just somehow he got interested in this

814
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:20,200
and it was all gung-ho now and had met

815
00:31:24,570 --> 00:31:22,090
Dale and he had the wherewithal and the

816
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:24,580
means to fly to Washington and whatnot

817
00:31:29,299 --> 00:31:27,330
so that was fine it was a you know open

818
00:31:31,879 --> 00:31:29,309
conference

819
00:31:34,549 --> 00:31:31,889
but John began to mention some things

820
00:31:36,590 --> 00:31:34,559
about intelligence connection or

821
00:31:38,330 --> 00:31:36,600
something some people he knew some

822
00:31:43,430 --> 00:31:38,340
places like in Turkey that might know

823
00:31:45,710 --> 00:31:43,440
something and I remembered Tom and I we

824
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:45,720
looked at each other and kind of you

825
00:31:49,759 --> 00:31:47,850
know raised eyebrows like well boy this

826
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:49,769
guy sounds like he's talking he's not

827
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:51,690
just a you know a clueless newbie so to

828
00:31:58,039 --> 00:31:54,330
speak that he but all right no problem

829
00:31:59,269 --> 00:31:58,049
so we went to the Press Club and it was

830
00:32:00,560 --> 00:31:59,279
kind of interesting one of the points

831
00:32:04,070 --> 00:32:00,570
that I recall that I thought was strange

832
00:32:05,450 --> 00:32:04,080
was Tom and Dale yeah and we're all

833
00:32:07,100 --> 00:32:05,460
we're up at the front behind the desks

834
00:32:10,279 --> 00:32:07,110
and John sitting in the front row the

835
00:32:12,230 --> 00:32:10,289
press room was a room about I'm guessing

836
00:32:13,539 --> 00:32:12,240
maybe twenty thirty feet wide you know

837
00:32:16,489 --> 00:32:13,549
they have a number of these things and

838
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:16,499
maybe thirty five feet deep thirty feet

839
00:32:19,789 --> 00:32:18,330
deep with a bunch of chairs in it some

840
00:32:22,700 --> 00:32:19,799
of the news cameras would set up along

841
00:32:23,230 --> 00:32:22,710
the periphery jeonse at the very front

842
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:23,240
row

843
00:32:28,879 --> 00:32:26,490
and just as it was about to start

844
00:32:31,070 --> 00:32:28,889
I mean seconds from everything starting

845
00:32:35,119 --> 00:32:31,080
up John got up moved in sat at the very

846
00:32:37,039 --> 00:32:35,129
back row I remembered to this day

847
00:32:38,509 --> 00:32:37,049
thinking well that was bizarre

848
00:32:39,830 --> 00:32:38,519
you know it was strange I don't know

849
00:32:42,139 --> 00:32:39,840
maybe the cameras want me to be focused

850
00:32:44,029 --> 00:32:42,149
on him anyway but needless to say he

851
00:32:48,830 --> 00:32:44,039
moved back so the press club went off it

852
00:32:49,970 --> 00:32:48,840
was fine after that we were sitting in I

853
00:32:53,090 --> 00:32:49,980
think we were sitting in the lobby

854
00:32:55,549 --> 00:32:53,100
someplace having a drink at the hotel I

855
00:32:57,859 --> 00:32:55,559
believe and I remember John sitting

856
00:33:00,109 --> 00:32:57,869
there and at one point he said you know

857
00:33:01,759 --> 00:33:00,119
if he was going to ask he said if I was

858
00:33:04,580 --> 00:33:01,769
going to make someone a spokesman for

859
00:33:06,830 --> 00:33:04,590
this I'd pick Chris and I thought well

860
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:06,840
that's you know complimentary that was

861
00:33:10,340 --> 00:33:09,090
fine I'm not sure why that mattered but

862
00:33:12,499 --> 00:33:10,350
he had this look on his face at the time

863
00:33:14,659 --> 00:33:12,509
I thought that's strange when it all

864
00:33:16,970 --> 00:33:14,669
began to come about was when Bill Moore

865
00:33:19,220 --> 00:33:16,980
was giving up I think he had a little

866
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:19,230
question and answer session and a lot of

867
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:21,090
us was I mean it was crowded of course

868
00:33:26,409 --> 00:33:24,450
bill Moore was in his heyday and John

869
00:33:28,489 --> 00:33:26,419
was sitting right next to me on my left

870
00:33:30,289 --> 00:33:28,499
and we're sitting here in these chairs

871
00:33:33,499 --> 00:33:30,299
and bill Moore's up behind the podium

872
00:33:38,060 --> 00:33:33,509
giving us talk and answering questions

873
00:33:41,930 --> 00:33:38,070
and for some reason suddenly John stood

874
00:33:42,830 --> 00:33:41,940
up and said something to the effect well

875
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:42,840
I know

876
00:33:50,629 --> 00:33:47,450
who know about mj-12 and I mean all

877
00:33:54,110 --> 00:33:50,639
cameras and faces were on John from that

878
00:33:58,039 --> 00:33:54,120
moment forward and Tom and I are sitting

879
00:34:00,680 --> 00:33:58,049
there with this feeling of holy cow yeah

880
00:34:03,049 --> 00:34:00,690
we had no clue that he was going to do

881
00:34:04,700 --> 00:34:03,059
this we had no clue that he was even had

882
00:34:06,950 --> 00:34:04,710
any knowledge of any of this stuff as

883
00:34:09,319 --> 00:34:06,960
far as we knew he'd pretty much you know

884
00:34:10,849 --> 00:34:09,329
just some guy who was had a name and got

885
00:34:12,770 --> 00:34:10,859
interested in UFOs and he was there just

886
00:34:16,099 --> 00:34:12,780
tagging along but all of a sudden he

887
00:34:18,139 --> 00:34:16,109
stood up and - and that was that was

888
00:34:20,329 --> 00:34:18,149
where John was born as far as I'm

889
00:34:22,250 --> 00:34:20,339
concerned in ufology but it but I have

890
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:22,260
to be honest with you I felt seriously

891
00:34:27,379 --> 00:34:24,450
blindsided not that I had any real

892
00:34:30,369 --> 00:34:27,389
effect on me it's just that I felt like

893
00:34:33,139 --> 00:34:30,379
holy cow I didn't see this coming at all

894
00:34:36,950 --> 00:34:33,149
but needless to say after that you know

895
00:34:38,690 --> 00:34:36,960
it's a free country right so John took

896
00:34:41,750 --> 00:34:38,700
off and of course all the tension was on

897
00:34:44,599 --> 00:34:41,760
him and being John Lear you know he got

898
00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:44,609
a lot of notoriety for that and but we

899
00:34:47,329 --> 00:34:46,169
remained friends for a while after that

900
00:34:49,579 --> 00:34:47,339
I mean there was not a certainly a

901
00:34:52,730 --> 00:34:49,589
reason not to and he was a very likeable

902
00:34:54,169 --> 00:34:52,740
guy he came to Dallas at one point and

903
00:34:56,300 --> 00:34:54,179
was giving a talk at when the radio

904
00:34:57,950 --> 00:34:56,310
stations and I picked him up and you

905
00:34:59,359 --> 00:34:57,960
know of course I have to be honest we

906
00:35:01,220 --> 00:34:59,369
good to be sitting on the other side of

907
00:35:03,260 --> 00:35:01,230
the glass and hear him say he thinks

908
00:35:05,030 --> 00:35:03,270
there's 80 species I think that's the

909
00:35:07,700 --> 00:35:05,040
correct number you said about 80 species

910
00:35:10,579 --> 00:35:07,710
of aliens visiting this planet and I'm

911
00:35:15,050 --> 00:35:10,589
cringing I'm thinking try to duck down

912
00:35:17,089 --> 00:35:15,060
as low as I can that John's presentation

913
00:35:19,930 --> 00:35:17,099
as far as I was concerned had to do with

914
00:35:24,620 --> 00:35:19,940
a lot of this kind of just way out there

915
00:35:26,300 --> 00:35:24,630
kind of information I I don't know

916
00:35:27,980 --> 00:35:26,310
anything really much I wasn't involved

917
00:35:30,290 --> 00:35:27,990
with John at all back at the time that

918
00:35:32,690 --> 00:35:30,300
although I'm hearing about it now that

919
00:35:34,460 --> 00:35:32,700
back when Robert Lazar was first coming

920
00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:34,470
into the picture John he was one of the

921
00:35:41,990 --> 00:35:37,200
first people that was got involved with

922
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:42,000
Lazarre we're out but but John went on

923
00:35:49,010 --> 00:35:47,010
and made this huge play you know almost

924
00:35:51,319 --> 00:35:49,020
saying just about anything under the Sun

925
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:51,329
he was one of the first real big

926
00:35:55,250 --> 00:35:52,770
proponents of things are going on at

927
00:35:56,570 --> 00:35:55,260
area 51 and he played up a lot of the

928
00:35:59,240 --> 00:35:56,580
whole idea of

929
00:36:01,040 --> 00:35:59,250
the underground bases with you know I do

930
00:36:02,450 --> 00:36:01,050
I describe much of this in the book and

931
00:36:05,090 --> 00:36:02,460
just in the section time to kind of

932
00:36:07,250 --> 00:36:05,100
clear the air on what I know of but the

933
00:36:10,190 --> 00:36:07,260
the point at which I had to just break

934
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:10,200
off with even you know hanging with John

935
00:36:14,630 --> 00:36:12,330
her so just be communicating with him

936
00:36:18,980 --> 00:36:14,640
was one time when I was at John's house

937
00:36:20,660 --> 00:36:18,990
and in Vegas and there was a comet we

938
00:36:23,690 --> 00:36:20,670
were talking about something this guy's

939
00:36:25,970 --> 00:36:23,700
got an amazing house I mean had if I

940
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:25,980
recall a horse barn had its own tennis

941
00:36:31,100 --> 00:36:28,650
court I mean we're talking more than

942
00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:31,110
I'll never have but a beautiful place

943
00:36:33,950 --> 00:36:32,400
beautiful room you can actually find

944
00:36:36,500 --> 00:36:33,960
pictures online that show his study

945
00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:36,510
which is practically as big as the

946
00:36:41,690 --> 00:36:38,910
average person's living room you know by

947
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:41,700
one and a half times pictures on the

948
00:36:45,710 --> 00:36:43,890
wall the whole nine yards and and he had

949
00:36:47,150 --> 00:36:45,720
discuss some of how he had flown for air

950
00:36:49,490 --> 00:36:47,160
america back in the day there was a big

951
00:36:52,250 --> 00:36:49,500
wall picture that had i think the whole

952
00:36:55,220 --> 00:36:52,260
allows cambodia vietnam you know map

953
00:36:59,840 --> 00:36:55,230
places he had been but then he mentions

954
00:37:04,760 --> 00:36:59,850
the time that who was the guy that wrote

955
00:37:06,140 --> 00:37:04,770
the pale pale rider anyway had been had

956
00:37:09,020 --> 00:37:06,150
been talking about his time in the Navy

957
00:37:10,370 --> 00:37:09,030
and had been all over you know some of

958
00:37:14,150 --> 00:37:10,380
the things that he was talking about and

959
00:37:16,820 --> 00:37:14,160
he mentioned having seen this bizarre

960
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:16,830
document called the krill memo mmm-hmm

961
00:37:23,450 --> 00:37:21,050
Kri oh you can find it online and

962
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:23,460
apparently the the term that was given

963
00:37:30,290 --> 00:37:27,930
was Oh H krill which John says stood for

964
00:37:32,810 --> 00:37:30,300
original hostage krill it apparently was

965
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:32,820
some kind of a memo anonymous lease you

966
00:37:36,980 --> 00:37:35,010
know not signed by anybody that seemed

967
00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:36,990
to attest to one of the aliens or some

968
00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:38,250
alien that had been captured and was

969
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:41,730
kept captive for a while well the guy

970
00:37:45,530 --> 00:37:43,410
William Cooper I think that's his name

971
00:37:48,410 --> 00:37:45,540
William Cooper who wrote Pale Rider was

972
00:37:49,850 --> 00:37:48,420
a big name at the time was in there and

973
00:37:51,860 --> 00:37:49,860
talking about having been in the Navy at

974
00:37:53,330 --> 00:37:51,870
the time and made comment to the it was

975
00:37:56,150 --> 00:37:53,340
a television interview I think that he

976
00:37:57,290 --> 00:37:56,160
was at John's house giving and made a

977
00:38:00,170 --> 00:37:57,300
comment to the interview that he had

978
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:00,180
seen the O H krill memo back when he was

979
00:38:05,030 --> 00:38:02,850
in the Navy and I may be paraphrasing

980
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:05,040
this from my memory but I'm willing to

981
00:38:09,829 --> 00:38:08,010
stand on this as being very accurate as

982
00:38:11,420 --> 00:38:09,839
far as the way things went

983
00:38:13,549 --> 00:38:11,430
well he says to the interview that he

984
00:38:15,469 --> 00:38:13,559
saw the so each grill memo and John says

985
00:38:18,049 --> 00:38:15,479
then they took a break and during the

986
00:38:19,910 --> 00:38:18,059
break John brought the went over to

987
00:38:22,699 --> 00:38:19,920
Cooper and says why are you telling him

988
00:38:24,349 --> 00:38:22,709
that you saw this memo and Cooper says

989
00:38:26,179 --> 00:38:24,359
well I did and John says you can't have

990
00:38:28,089 --> 00:38:26,189
because and he names this other

991
00:38:31,370 --> 00:38:28,099
gentleman because he and I made it up

992
00:38:33,079 --> 00:38:31,380
hmm and of course I'm standing in John's

993
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:33,089
house while he's telling me how this one

994
00:38:36,319 --> 00:38:35,249
doesn't he's admitting this right to you

995
00:38:38,269 --> 00:38:36,329
oh yeah

996
00:38:39,199 --> 00:38:38,279
and he says Cooper says well I don't

997
00:38:40,729 --> 00:38:39,209
know why you're saying that but I did

998
00:38:43,309 --> 00:38:40,739
see it yeah something to save face

999
00:38:45,199 --> 00:38:43,319
apparently and I'm standing there and of

1000
00:38:47,420 --> 00:38:45,209
course my jaw is starting to drop and

1001
00:38:49,249 --> 00:38:47,430
I'm like I told John said John why are

1002
00:38:51,890 --> 00:38:49,259
you telling me this so you're telling me

1003
00:38:54,259 --> 00:38:51,900
that you've and trying to recall the

1004
00:38:55,370 --> 00:38:54,269
name of the gentleman that he knew I

1005
00:38:57,549 --> 00:38:55,380
think I've got it written down or

1006
00:39:00,049 --> 00:38:57,559
someplace but apparently he says well

1007
00:39:02,509 --> 00:39:00,059
this other person had wanted to

1008
00:39:05,539 --> 00:39:02,519
quote-unquote break into the UFO field

1009
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:05,549
and so they created this document now

1010
00:39:09,739 --> 00:39:07,890
John has stated and I believe it may've

1011
00:39:11,809 --> 00:39:09,749
been on the above top-secret site he's

1012
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:11,819
written some posts where he addresses

1013
00:39:16,429 --> 00:39:13,890
this that I've made this I've said this

1014
00:39:17,599 --> 00:39:16,439
before that what I told John I said John

1015
00:39:19,069 --> 00:39:17,609
how am I supposed to be friends with you

1016
00:39:21,019 --> 00:39:19,079
on this how can I even associate with

1017
00:39:22,579 --> 00:39:21,029
you when I'm trying so hard to have this

1018
00:39:23,709 --> 00:39:22,589
taken seriously and here you're telling

1019
00:39:26,529 --> 00:39:23,719
I don't know why you're telling me this

1020
00:39:29,569 --> 00:39:26,539
but here you are telling me that you've

1021
00:39:31,069 --> 00:39:29,579
fabricated this memo which is just more

1022
00:39:33,229 --> 00:39:31,079
garbage out here it's already full

1023
00:39:35,479 --> 00:39:33,239
enough garbage as it is then here you

1024
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:35,489
are saying this how can I associate with

1025
00:39:39,949 --> 00:39:37,650
you knowing this and that was the end of

1026
00:39:41,779 --> 00:39:39,959
it when I left it was you know that was

1027
00:39:44,150 --> 00:39:41,789
all no I'm not saying I don't like John

1028
00:39:46,489 --> 00:39:44,160
I'm just saying now especially when I

1029
00:39:49,689 --> 00:39:46,499
look back and especially the type of

1030
00:39:52,130 --> 00:39:49,699
thing that I finally began to and I

1031
00:39:54,739 --> 00:39:52,140
suspect now what I wrote in the appendix

1032
00:39:58,309 --> 00:39:54,749
about the but what I see as a very

1033
00:40:00,859 --> 00:39:58,319
questionable Doty and leer I wonder

1034
00:40:02,689 --> 00:40:00,869
about John's role in all of this you

1035
00:40:04,249 --> 00:40:02,699
know whether I just don't know I'm done

1036
00:40:06,890 --> 00:40:04,259
at some point can answer he can address

1037
00:40:09,079 --> 00:40:06,900
that himself but the whole idea was for

1038
00:40:11,150 --> 00:40:09,089
John to have told me he and this

1039
00:40:12,739 --> 00:40:11,160
gentleman fabricated this in some way I

1040
00:40:14,599 --> 00:40:12,749
guess it was going to be a calling card

1041
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:14,609
for this person to break into the UFO

1042
00:40:20,410 --> 00:40:17,729
lecture circuit or something I just it

1043
00:40:22,670 --> 00:40:20,420
was just unfathomable to me right right

1044
00:40:24,770 --> 00:40:22,680
anyway but the point was and

1045
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:24,780
after that of course John had gone has

1046
00:40:29,450 --> 00:40:27,210
gone on ever since and made a big name

1047
00:40:32,270 --> 00:40:29,460
for himself as you know somebody who

1048
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:32,280
knows things about you know ufology at

1049
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:35,210
area 51 and still I guess he's still

1050
00:40:40,940 --> 00:40:38,610
preaching the same story now he actually

1051
00:40:43,370 --> 00:40:40,950
went to bennewitz house and stayed

1052
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:43,380
possibly a couple of days and this is

1053
00:40:48,590 --> 00:40:45,210
like toward the end of your

1054
00:40:51,170 --> 00:40:48,600
communication and where we need to wrap

1055
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:51,180
this up fairly quickly but one of the

1056
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:55,170
things that happens is after John Lear

1057
00:40:59,840 --> 00:40:56,930
leaves there you have a conversation

1058
00:41:01,340 --> 00:40:59,850
he's he seems very angry about the whole

1059
00:41:03,620 --> 00:41:01,350
situation I don't know if he blames you

1060
00:41:06,110 --> 00:41:03,630
or not changes his number you're never

1061
00:41:09,260 --> 00:41:06,120
able to get in touch with him and and

1062
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:09,270
was at 2003 I believe it is he passes

1063
00:41:15,260 --> 00:41:12,450
away and it's kind of a mystery but the

1064
00:41:18,770 --> 00:41:15,270
question on his death or nobody seems to

1065
00:41:23,540 --> 00:41:18,780
really know that you've spoken with how

1066
00:41:27,410 --> 00:41:23,550
he how he actually died but the question

1067
00:41:31,250 --> 00:41:27,420
I wonder has anyone trying to reach his

1068
00:41:35,180 --> 00:41:31,260
wife or perhaps Widow or or other family

1069
00:41:38,150 --> 00:41:35,190
members his son to see if there's still

1070
00:41:42,260 --> 00:41:38,160
this information his films and things

1071
00:41:44,150 --> 00:41:42,270
like that available not to my knowledge

1072
00:41:46,550 --> 00:41:44,160
other than the only last people that I

1073
00:41:47,930 --> 00:41:46,560
have known of course I think Greg Bishop

1074
00:41:49,100 --> 00:41:47,940
may have been trying to have some

1075
00:41:51,590 --> 00:41:49,110
communication with him at the time

1076
00:41:53,710 --> 00:41:51,600
although I I kind of agree with the Greg

1077
00:41:55,820 --> 00:41:53,720
Bishop from the point of view that you

1078
00:41:57,950 --> 00:41:55,830
know they do have the right to be left

1079
00:41:59,750 --> 00:41:57,960
alone and I don't know what they're you

1080
00:42:01,430 --> 00:41:59,760
know the family side of this whole thing

1081
00:42:04,430 --> 00:42:01,440
was and how they feel about it at the

1082
00:42:07,940 --> 00:42:04,440
time so I am extremely reticent to

1083
00:42:10,580 --> 00:42:07,950
intrude although I did call Paul son

1084
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:10,590
while I was working on this book hoping

1085
00:42:14,780 --> 00:42:12,570
that I might clarify just some points of

1086
00:42:16,820 --> 00:42:14,790
it he was very polite and even actually

1087
00:42:19,610 --> 00:42:16,830
early on before Paul passed away I had

1088
00:42:20,930 --> 00:42:19,620
called his son and just wanted to check

1089
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:20,940
on Paul and see if he was there and

1090
00:42:24,230 --> 00:42:22,770
because at the time it was just

1091
00:42:26,270 --> 00:42:24,240
staggering to me that Paul hadn't called

1092
00:42:28,700 --> 00:42:26,280
me right away or just to clarify it was

1093
00:42:31,610 --> 00:42:28,710
John Lear had been to see Paul and after

1094
00:42:33,980 --> 00:42:31,620
Lear left I talked to Paul on the phone

1095
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:33,990
within a day or two and Paul was livid

1096
00:42:37,410 --> 00:42:35,170
about something too

1097
00:42:39,329 --> 00:42:37,420
with leer and it was subsequent to that

1098
00:42:41,430 --> 00:42:39,339
within another day or two after that

1099
00:42:42,599 --> 00:42:41,440
that Linda Hal called me and asked if

1100
00:42:44,099 --> 00:42:42,609
I'd spoken with Paul and I said yeah a

1101
00:42:46,380 --> 00:42:44,109
couple of days ago and she said well his

1102
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:46,390
phone numbers didn't just can changed to

1103
00:42:50,549 --> 00:42:48,970
an unlisted number I was never able to I

1104
00:42:52,799 --> 00:42:50,559
never was in touch with Paul again

1105
00:42:54,780 --> 00:42:52,809
although I've was I would have bet money

1106
00:42:56,670 --> 00:42:54,790
he'll call me or write me within a few

1107
00:42:57,900 --> 00:42:56,680
days give me the new number but I never

1108
00:43:00,299 --> 00:42:57,910
heard from them again so I don't know

1109
00:43:01,950 --> 00:43:00,309
what happened there but I did try to

1110
00:43:04,020 --> 00:43:01,960
contact him I wrote several letters

1111
00:43:05,940 --> 00:43:04,030
after that I have no way of knowing

1112
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:05,950
whether they ever got to him I did call

1113
00:43:09,390 --> 00:43:07,690
the son one time it was very polite and

1114
00:43:10,950 --> 00:43:09,400
basically just said all he could

1115
00:43:13,710 --> 00:43:10,960
recommend was to keep trying you know

1116
00:43:15,210 --> 00:43:13,720
Dakota his father directly and if it was

1117
00:43:18,780 --> 00:43:15,220
his father's choice whether he answered

1118
00:43:20,549 --> 00:43:18,790
or not and then I think I was writing on

1119
00:43:23,370 --> 00:43:20,559
the book after his father passed away I

1120
00:43:25,740 --> 00:43:23,380
I did call Thunder Scientific and spoke

1121
00:43:27,690 --> 00:43:25,750
briefly with his with his son again but

1122
00:43:30,329 --> 00:43:27,700
he basically just said you know they're

1123
00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:30,339
just not interested in and going on with

1124
00:43:33,359 --> 00:43:30,730
it

1125
00:43:36,870 --> 00:43:33,369
and and finally the last thing I did

1126
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:36,880
just on a lark was just after I began to

1127
00:43:40,589 --> 00:43:38,530
enhance the images and I began to

1128
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:40,599
realize that there is serious data in

1129
00:43:44,039 --> 00:43:42,130
these images I mean you can you can

1130
00:43:47,970 --> 00:43:44,049
actually get past all of this glow and

1131
00:43:49,380 --> 00:43:47,980
see things down in there and realizing

1132
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:49,390
how substantial they would be not to

1133
00:43:54,109 --> 00:43:50,650
mention the other room it just you know

1134
00:43:58,109 --> 00:43:54,119
the possibly the 200 can millimeter live

1135
00:44:00,390 --> 00:43:58,119
that and and I did write to his wife and

1136
00:44:02,039 --> 00:44:00,400
basically just said you know I'm just

1137
00:44:04,410 --> 00:44:02,049
asking her that and telling her that my

1138
00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:04,420
feeling is that those original films

1139
00:44:09,450 --> 00:44:06,730
from his rooftop were the films that are

1140
00:44:10,710 --> 00:44:09,460
at the core of everything that if she's

1141
00:44:12,780 --> 00:44:10,720
got them where she knows where they are

1142
00:44:14,190 --> 00:44:12,790
to have nothing else please save him you

1143
00:44:16,859 --> 00:44:14,200
know put him in a safe lock him away

1144
00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:16,869
whatever it should be at some point down

1145
00:44:19,650 --> 00:44:18,250
the roads you know somebody will have a

1146
00:44:21,750 --> 00:44:19,660
chance to actually get their hands on

1147
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:21,760
the actual films because even Paul had

1148
00:44:25,020 --> 00:44:23,530
told me when I was looking at the

1149
00:44:27,599 --> 00:44:25,030
pictures that he sent to me that he said

1150
00:44:29,010 --> 00:44:27,609
the originals are far more clear and I

1151
00:44:30,870 --> 00:44:29,020
imagine they have to be what I got his

1152
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:30,880
pictures he snapped off of a film editor

1153
00:44:36,539 --> 00:44:33,490
screen so if it was possible to get the

1154
00:44:38,430 --> 00:44:36,549
original film and scan that in I can

1155
00:44:40,829 --> 00:44:38,440
only imagine what might be in there you

1156
00:44:43,349 --> 00:44:40,839
know and those original films but but I

1157
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:43,359
don't know of anybody that's ever got

1158
00:44:47,069 --> 00:44:44,890
their hands on the original films out

1159
00:44:48,390 --> 00:44:47,079
there I guess I almost wish somebody

1160
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:48,400
would if nothing else so that they're

1161
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:48,610
out

1162
00:44:55,050 --> 00:44:52,210
where people can can study them but but

1163
00:44:56,970 --> 00:44:55,060
once again it's 30 years ago and it's

1164
00:44:59,430 --> 00:44:56,980
tough to know you know I just I would

1165
00:45:00,900 --> 00:44:59,440
like to see some justice done for Paul

1166
00:45:02,790 --> 00:45:00,910
at least for the fact that he did have

1167
00:45:03,930 --> 00:45:02,800
something and what-what happened to him

1168
00:45:06,630 --> 00:45:03,940
I don't think there's anything anybody

1169
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:06,640
in this country would have expected or

1170
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:10,090
even imagined that that some people

1171
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:11,410
encountered telling us otherwise might

1172
00:45:15,270 --> 00:45:14,170
make an effort out to defuse a somebody

1173
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:15,280
who was simply trying to do the right

1174
00:45:22,980 --> 00:45:19,450
thing so twisted it's a great book it's

1175
00:45:25,380 --> 00:45:22,990
a great read is called X descending can

1176
00:45:28,260 --> 00:45:25,390
find it on his website x desc

1177
00:45:30,420 --> 00:45:28,270
publishing calm and Chris has been

1178
00:45:32,910 --> 00:45:30,430
absolutely wonderful thank you for these

1179
00:45:34,650 --> 00:45:32,920
two sessions really appreciate all the

1180
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:34,660
hard work that you've done on this Thank

1181
00:45:36,420 --> 00:45:35,890
You Martin I hope to talk to you again

1182
00:45:38,820 --> 00:45:36,430
soon

1183
00:45:42,990 --> 00:45:38,830
well this is Martin Willis with Chris

1184
00:45:44,310 --> 00:45:43,000
Lambright and that's it for today thank

1185
00:45:46,860 --> 00:45:44,320
you for listening I do have a couple of

1186
00:45:48,630 --> 00:45:46,870
quick announcements first of all on all

1187
00:45:51,510 --> 00:45:48,640
our shows you will see that we do have

1188
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:51,520
our shows transcribed we also have links

1189
00:45:56,220 --> 00:45:54,130
under the show notes and we do incur

1190
00:45:58,080 --> 00:45:56,230
some expenses because of this and other

1191
00:46:00,120 --> 00:45:58,090
things we'd like to help us out we do

1192
00:46:03,210 --> 00:46:00,130
have a donation button on our sidebar

1193
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:03,220
and a dollar a show is all we ask